Tonya J. Long: 0:00

Welcome friends. I'm Tonya Long and this is RESET. Each week, we share conversations with thought leaders, innovators and the dreamers and doers who are reshaping the future of work, technology, longevity and purpose. So settle in and let's explore what happens when purpose meets possibility. Hello everyone and welcome to RESET with Tonya remote edition from Tomales Bay and the Olema Campground. I am here today with one of my favorite people in the world. This is my Airstream mentor, John McGowan, and John has had several resets and that's why I got him to agree to be on today's show. John is a lifetime corporate executive. I have, as a recovering tech gal, I have really enjoyed hearing all John stories about when he, in his early career, helped Dave Packard and the Hewlett Packard team as they built those teams and then he became a negotiation expert. John is always a fascinating conversation because his academic degrees. He got an engineering degree first, I believe.

John McGowan: 1:05

Engineering from Stanford.

Tonya J. Long: 1:07

And then from Stanford yes, he's one of the few locals and then followed that up with an MBA, and then I guess he must have been bored before the kids started, so he went to law school at Santa Clara University to get his law degree. So John and I have had so much fun since I met him five years ago. And this contraption we're in is Bella, my Airstream, and John was the first person that ever met Bella, because I went over to John home, found him online and this was during COVID, and he walked me through how not to burn it down. So, with all the usual disclaimers you would expect from a lawyer, Airstream boot camp.

Tonya J. Long: 1:41

It was Airstream boot camp, all masks, and I knew John was my people when the steps didn't fold out well and he disappeared into his garage for a minute and came back with knee pads and a spray can of WD-40 because he wasn't happy with the steps. So he's an engineer, he's a dad, he has two grown adult children and a lovely wife, diane. So I am thrilled to have John on the show today.

John McGowan: 2:02

John, welcome, thank you.

Tonya J. Long: 2:04

So tell us I'm going to be candid you will be the oldest person that I've had as a guest. No, and I think it's wonderful because I know that my listeners here in the Bay Area, but in particular in Tennessee, are many that are close to your age. Marvel when they see somebody still walking and talking. But they've had so much life experience.

John McGowan: 2:27

Right.

Tonya J. Long: 2:27

And so that's what I think this show is about RESET. It's about pivots and transitions, and I don't want this to come across wrong, but at some point in life those transitions become a plateau and we get accustomed to working within what we'll be instead of climbing. And I think anyone who's reached in their 70s has reached that point where they're making a difference and an impact, but in general, they may have new experiences, but they're not still climbing. So where do you put yourself on that scale?

John McGowan: 3:00

I have been through quite a few RESET. I became an engineer. I have been through quite a few RESET. I became an engineer. I got an engineering degree because my father, who was an engineer and a corporate officer, told me, if I didn't get an engineering degree, I'd never get a good job.

Tonya J. Long: 3:14

So I got an engineering degree.

John McGowan: 3:16

Yeah, and it turned out, I was a really bad engineer, didn't do well in calculus, didn't do well in modern advanced physics. So I got a job anyway and discovered sales and marketing was a lot more fun. So I earned an MBA while I was working at my first job at Westinghouse and slid out of the engineering over into the sales and marketing and learned government contracting, learned a few dark arts that nobody else seemed to care about, and after a short sabbatical, playing with airplanes, selling airplanes.

Tonya J. Long: 3:53

You sold airplanes too.

John McGowan: 3:53

at one point I sold airplanes at the local dealer with the flapping pens and come on out and buy a $40,000 toy that nobody needs. That taught me a new style of selling and I got a job at Hewlett-Packard. Finally, that was my company I wanted to work for, but they wouldn't hire me out of college because I didn't have the obligatory 3.0.

Tonya J. Long: 4:14

So you had fun in college.

John McGowan: 4:16

Yeah. Yes, that was another transit from 17-year-old 3,000 miles from home. Transit from 17 year old 3000 miles from home barely able to drive yes, Lied my way to get a checking account below the age of majority. So, no, I didn't get great grades. And at HP I started doing procurement because they wanted somebody who could negotiate and most of the homegrown HP purchasing people didn't negotiate.

John McGowan: 4:45

They just gave people orders, and so I started in procurement and then I wanted to show off my MBA and a friend said you could be the corporate credit manager if you wanted, and I've got a better job waiting for me. So I got sucked into being the corporate credit manager with $6 billion in receivables and I knew a little. I found myself taking the beginning financial analysis class with a bunch of other credit trainees from Sears and they were all astounded that here's a corporate credit guy with billions in receivables. And I quickly learned it wasn't about financial ratios and assets. It was about the personalities and the ethics of the customer that either we take the deal or we don't.

John McGowan: 5:34

But it was not based on their quick ratio. And then I slid over back into government contracts again, because they didn't have any experts there either. And at that point I persuaded HP to let me go to law school in the evening. They paid for it, but I had to do the work, and along came two children while I was in law school, first year, first semester, second year, second semester which made it more challenging.

John McGowan: 6:03

But with the legal degree on top of the others that made it possible to really become a specialist doing contracts and negotiation, going through the various transitions of Hewlett Packard from the 80s computer business and the 90s internal conflicts. By the time of the split I was leading all of the contracts activity for the electronic test business, became the director of contracts for Agilent Technologies and retired as a vice president of contracts and policies from Agilent in 2006. And then unretired three more times and a total of four retirements.

John McGowan: 6:44

Started consulting, went back to work for the old Hewlett Packard Credit Union as chief counsel and risk officer and finally, another consulting relationship. Finally, about 2018, decided I was going to retire for good, so I've been doing other things since rather than consulting for money so along the way you picked up some interesting hobbies.

John McGowan: 7:09

Yep, you have your own small plane and you fly missions for pause for pilots, pilots for pause to like rest animal rescue flights for a group called pilots and pause, where we donate the airplane and the fuel and just get animals from shelters to rescue groups. Vets and I fly. Somebody gave me an airplane ride when I was 12, and it changed my life and so I've flown about 130 children between the ages of 8 and 18. They come out to the airport and if mom or dad signs a release, they get a free airplane.

Tonya J. Long: 7:42

Are those called Little Leos.

John McGowan: 7:43

They're called Young Eagles. I knew there was some code name for this group of young children who haven't had opportunities to fly and that you've done that a couple of times a year, sponsored by a pilot's organization, a group in the aggregate has flown over two and a half million kids.

Tonya J. Long: 7:58

Give them something.

John McGowan: 7:59

Not all of them will become pilots but all of them will remember their first airplane time.

Tonya J. Long: 8:03

Yeah, of course. When I was in high school in Tennessee, my freshman year, we had an out-of-town French studies teacher, small town. Her husband was a pilot and he took me up in Hickman County, Tennessee, and, if it's still on the books, I have a half hour of flight time that I got to book and I probably was 14. I wasn't driving yet. It was my freshman year in high school.

John McGowan: 8:24

But it was an amazing experience. When I fly the kids I tell them it was life-changing for me. It could be for you. I can remember the weather, the time of day, the smells of the air, everything about it. It's one of those.

Tonya J. Long: 8:40

Milestone memories.

John McGowan: 8:40

It's a milestone.

Tonya J. Long: 8:41

Yeah, I love it. Now, did you I know on the ground did you just own a Porsche or did you race Porsches when you and the boys would go to Laguna Seca?

John McGowan: 8:50

Just owned, just owned, okay.

Tonya J. Long: 8:55

So you had those, but you had those hobbies of going to racing.

John McGowan: 8:57

We were going to sports car races as 12-year-olds, okay, and Roger Penske worked for my father as an aluminum salesman in the 60s and we would go watch Roger race before he did it professionally.

John McGowan: 9:10

And I went to the race driving school at Laguna Seca and finally realized that could be one too many expensive hobbies and backed away from it. Or if I'd had leftover money, I probably would have raced cars. I knew enough people who had spent a lot of money on racing cars. It's all money out. We have some friends who still do that. No money in.

Tonya J. Long: 9:31

So then you picked up RVing. So you owned a sports car, you were interested in racing but didn't do that. You flew and you still fly, and then at some point you started RVing. I believe you had another kind of RV when the kids were young.

John McGowan: 9:43

In the late 80s the kids were seven, eight. We wanted to do vacations. We weren't comfortable taking them all to fancy hotels yeah. So we ended up buying a very inexpensive and marginally built, it was functional.

Tonya J. Long: 10:02

We bought a travel trailer because we had a Ford Bronco to pull with. Yeah.

John McGowan: 10:07

And so our little 23-foot trailer bunk beds in the back for the kids and a queen in the front for us, and we probably put 40,000 miles on that trailer over 13 years. We took it up into Canada, british Columbia, out to San Juan Island, down Southern California out into. Arizona, the big trip. We did 10,000 miles.

Tonya J. Long: 10:36

The only 30-day vacation I ever took in my life was Sunnyvale, california, to Bar Harbor, maine, back to Northern Route East and Southern Route West again, and the kids still remember that adventure.

John McGowan: 10:49

Every day was a fond memory. It was a great adventure and after our younger son graduated from college, I decided we needed an upgrade and bought an Airstream. Sight unseen couple in Texas Drove two and a half days nonstop to get to Texas, hooked it up and brought it home and that was. Airstream number one we had that for a total of 13 years, sold it for a profit and went out and bought a new one.

Tonya J. Long: 11:18

That's why we value Airstreams because they hold their value yeah.

John McGowan: 11:22

Bought a new one that better suited the floor plan, better suited the dog, and so we've had that since we bought that at the beginning of COVID. Got it and we've put probably 20,000 miles on that a couple of Arizona loops, another trip up north a couple of trips down to Southern California, and it's just it's a great way to travel.

Tonya J. Long: 11:41

I love it. So you've had what I would authentically call high-profile hobbies, yes, and I wonder. You had a storied corporate career. You were helping build Hewlett Packard through their early days and into their mid-years. What do you see in common with all that you learned in corporate? Supporting these hobbies that you had that were most people would. It would take a lot to do one of them and you've chosen several. What helped you between corporate and those hobbies? What helped you bridge?

John McGowan: 12:13

This may not be the right answer.

Tonya J. Long: 12:15

Everything is the right answer. What I found the?

John McGowan: 12:17

hobbies were a way to separate myself from the work world. Be able to say I'm. I am now driving in a thunderstorm with tornado warnings and children in the back seat, through Western Pennsylvania pulling 7,000 pounds with trucks flying past me and I'm really not thinking about work and I'm not thinking about much else.

John McGowan: 12:45

Yeah, and the same is true with a small airplane If you're flying in a rainstorm and you're looking ahead to see if it's going to get better or worse and you have to make an instrument approach coming down through the clouds to the airplane and. I were equipped to be able to drop down to within 200 to 300 feet of the ground and, in theory, the clouds will lift and there will be strobe lights and a runway.

Tonya J. Long: 13:13

But not always.

John McGowan: 13:14

And so again, 100% focus, absolutely committed.

Tonya J. Long: 13:18

Yes, those white knuckle moments. You're not thinking about whether somebody at the office got that task done on Friday afternoon.

John McGowan: 13:25

There is no mind-watering whatever. You're focused on that. The same with driving Driving a car on the freeway on an average day at the speed limit. People are checking their phone, looking at text, playing with the touchscreen when you speed the car up and you go really quickly. All of a sudden, all you're focused on is the car. Am I at the limit? Am I over?

Tonya J. Long: 13:50

unfortunate or am I just?

John McGowan: 13:51

below it. Is there going to be somebody coming around the next corner, or can I cut that? So everything again narrow, the focus comes narrowed back down. And all you're doing is dealing with what's out the windshield and what's going on in the car. Work is gone.

Tonya J. Long: 14:07

You're right.

John McGowan: 14:09

And that's therapeutic, it helps with sanity. It is, isn't it.

Tonya J. Long: 14:12

Yeah, and in our corporate lives, what I experience is a lot of tiny steps across a long period of time to get things done. And things are so much more immediate in this Airstream world or in some of these hobbies that we have, because you do it, then you get it done, you wrap it up, you finish the project, you finish the weekend.

John McGowan: 14:30

It's not a two-year roadmap or a launch, and if you're driving through North Dakota and it's 106 degrees and the air conditioner in your vehicle fails.

Tonya J. Long: 14:40

Yes.

John McGowan: 14:41

You don't schedule a Zoom, because this has happened to John. These are not what ifs you don't schedule a Zoom call. Yes, you don't send an email to the team saying what shall we do? You pull over, you find the repair shop, you get it fixed you deal, where are? We going to put the trailer while we're waiting for the compressor again.

Tonya J. Long: 15:01

Or if you lose a tire driving across. Was it Wisconsin, wyoming W? I got the W Rock Springs.

John McGowan: 15:07

All of that again, yes, Not thinking about work, not thinking about the last consulting project, whether you might have done that a little better or differently.

Tonya J. Long: 15:17

A narrow focus.

John McGowan: 15:18

I love it and for me, that shifting of gears to be able to say, okay, I'm going to that shifting of gears. To be able to say, okay, I'm going to turn work off and turn on something else that I'm committed to and enjoying.

Tonya J. Long: 15:32

Good.

John McGowan: 15:32

Putting three 10-year-olds in your airplane with mom and dad and all standing behind the fence going oh, I hope he comes back, okay. Tremendous level of responsibility. You don't want to screw that up, you're right.

Tonya J. Long: 15:46

So we were just talking about how your corporate role played into corporate roles, played into these fantastic hobbies and experiences that you've developed as part of your life. And you didn't do this alone. You did this with a wonderful human named Diane, thank you. And let's not forget Ellie, but Ellie's only been around the last 12 or 13 years. A sweet little dog. But, diane, how long have you been married?

John McGowan: 16:13

It was 50 years in November that we've been married.

Tonya J. Long: 16:16

I think I saw pictures on Facebook of the celebration.

John McGowan: 16:20

Blind date set up, she was engaged to somebody else. Happily that didn't work out. Blind date set up, she was engaged to somebody else.

John McGowan: 16:29

Happily that didn't work out, and I was. I was smart enough. My, my dad elbowed me at one point and said hurry up. And so we got married in 74 and time. She was a printed circuit designer, so she was working at Hewlett Packard and she helped find me the job at HP. And once I had the HP job, with all of the stability and benefits, she went off and became an independent contract designer.

John McGowan: 17:00

Was making substantially more money than I was at the time was making substantially more money than I was at the time. But after the airplane sales experience, when the dealer went bankrupt and I got the job at HP, it's time we should have children and we had talked about and committed that once we had children she was going to be a stay-at-home mom and in Silicon Valley that means certain things aren't going to happen.

John McGowan: 17:24

The big house in the hills isn't going to happen, but it worked really well and she was PTA president at the elementary school and at the junior high school and elected to that job. But the high school had to step back for some other reasons. But it made a huge difference for the kids and it made a huge difference for me working because, I could go off one year.

John McGowan: 17:48

I spent 16 weeks in Washington DC when I was HP's government contracts manager working on big proposals, lobbying, testifying in Senate subcommittees all of this stuff that you do in the government. The government is in Washington not in Sunnyvale, and there would have been no way to do that without Diane being at home with the kids making sure that they got to school, that they had a costume for Halloween day.

John McGowan: 18:15

She was the classroom mom helping teachers aid for a while, so all of that was enabling and all the way up through high school and college, because by the time the kids got to college I had transitioned to the test and measurement electron test job at Hewlett-Packard.

John McGowan: 18:37

That made the international trap. So now, instead of just buzzing off to Colorado or Washington, where I can get home in five hours, buzzing off to Colorado or Washington, where I can get home in five hours, now I'm in Geneva or Hong Kong or Singapore, where I can get home 12 hours after noon tomorrow because of the time zone and hard to talk on the phone because it's the middle of the night somewhere and again.

John McGowan: 18:58

So she took care of the home office while I was out taking care of my career of the home office while I was out taking care of my career and what started as both working, both earning money, trying to get to the point where we could afford to buy a house or get established, to being full-time mom all the way through school and then, once the kids were gone, let's just divide things up 50-50 and become partners and throughout the she and I, people would say you two are very different. Left brain, engineer, attorney, brain, artistic, emotional, quotient.

Tonya J. Long: 19:36

High EQ High.

John McGowan: 19:37

EQ.

Tonya J. Long: 19:38

It really works.

John McGowan: 19:39

It does. It works pretty well, it does.

Tonya J. Long: 19:41

I've watched you guys for the last five years and I can say it works.

John McGowan: 19:46

It took a little while, but both of us realized that the other has skills and talent and abilities that we don't, and step back and avoid doing the things that we're good at and let the other one do that.

Tonya J. Long: 20:00

I think that's sage advice for anyone young into their marriage or their relationship to let the other do the things that they're good at, that they enjoy, and you don't have to be there for every second of it. In fact I've experienced that with you. We've done some work on Bella from your sidewalk and Diane would come out over a couple of hours to say you guys need some tea, but she didn't hover at all because she knew that we were doing our mechanical thing installing some new batteries.

John McGowan: 20:28

She's never going to change the oil or rotate the tires or fix a broken outlet, and I'm not less likely to host a party by myself. And part of it. That by itself is powerful. What is extra powerful is the ability to both laugh at ourselves and the situation when the entire plan fails Be able to say that was a colossal screw up and then start laughing about it and having maybe not the same sense of humor, but complimentary sense of humor, to avoid getting wound up when things weren't going as well as they were planned.

Tonya J. Long: 21:11

Yeah.

John McGowan: 21:12

You've gone through the plan A and plan B and you're down to plan F and you have to be able to say Time to sit.

Tonya J. Long: 21:18

Start back in a bit. Oh you wait.

John McGowan: 21:19

We'll get through this.

Tonya J. Long: 21:20

Yeah.

John McGowan: 21:22

And and so it's been hugely positive. The career wouldn't have happened without Diane and Diane stepping into the roles that she stepped into.

Tonya J. Long: 21:32

And our kids would have turned out differently as well if she had been there for them, my mom also took time off when we were young. My brother and I do think it makes a big difference when they can be in the schools. Like Diane was involved in PTA, my mom's substitute taught and for them to experience what the kids are going through I think helps them relate more to what the challenge is.

John McGowan: 21:53

It was huge and we'd have some rice and beans dinners and we were driving older cars and our friends were moving up into the higher rent neighborhoods and we weren't. We said and our friends were moving up into the higher rent neighborhoods and we weren't. We said are you good with that? Yeah, good with that? Good, yeah, it's a conscious choice. We've seen other arrangements that didn't work out as well. Her time in the schools you could see kids that were having some of them with both parents working were fine, but some of them were struggling.

John McGowan: 22:23

We didn't want to have to put ourselves at risk of having that happen.

Tonya J. Long: 22:27

I love that. So I'm going to. You mentioned neighborhoods and moving up, which is a segue for me to community. So I want to take just a quick minute and do a station ID check. Here at the bottom of the hour we are at KPCR LP, 92.9 out of Los Gatos. Today I'm broadcasting remotely from Olema Campground up in Tomales Bay and also sister station KMRT LP that's 101.9 out of Santa Cruz. So we are recording this remotely with John McGowan and the community statement I made.

Tonya J. Long: 23:00

We are a community radio station so we have developed a program called the Signal Society for those who want to support community radio for KPCRLP. For as little as $5 a month you can become a subscriber to the radio. You get a little membership card. John, you might want one of these Instead of your ARP card. We can get you a Signal Society card and there's a few dozen businesses, mostly Central Peninsula in the Bay Area. Also, if you become a member of the Signal Society, you get to come into the station and do a tour and you can do one show a year where you partner with a regular host and we'll create your own show with you on the air, which is cool. You can go to kpcrorg and the donate section and you'll see details. But it's a great way to support the artists and the curators and the creators that work to bring you the news and the information that we think you want as part of the community.

Tonya J. Long: 23:55

Okay, so let's go into I love the talk about Diane. Let's move into transitions going from big enterprise corporate into transitions going from big enterprise corporate HPE, hewlett Packard Enterprise to Agilent, then into consulting that transition for you. It's hard for me. So what was that like for you to move from running big teams in a big company with big process to helping smaller companies find their processes?

John McGowan: 24:21

The driver for that transition. The dot-com bust of 2001 hit Agilent particularly hard. We called ourselves at one point, the caterpillar tractor of the information highway.

Tonya J. Long: 24:36

Okay.

John McGowan: 24:37

So we provide a lot of equipment and infrastructure tools to let other people build out the internet and when the internetcom boom collapsed, we went from a billion dollar a month company to a 400 billion dollar a month company in one month. And no large corporation can turn on that small a dime Like a 60% drop in a month. I was pretty well burned out and it was painful dealing with employees that I had sought out and recruited and persuaded to come to work for me.

John McGowan: 25:29

And it also led me to be a little bit difficult to deal with the CFO and CEO.

Tonya J. Long: 25:37

Those are tense times.

John McGowan: 25:39

And when you're at near the upper part of the pyramid and you start ruffling feathers, you could decide that maybe I should look for other opportunities at this angle so. I just got. I got fed up and so I had the opportunity. I took an early retirement and one of the companies that I worked with to train my people and they trained the HP Salesforce. They also trained AT&T Salesforce, salesforce, lots and lots of large blue chip companies. They were the trainer of record for negotiation, sales negotiation for their sales teams.

John McGowan: 26:19

And I had been the promoter and work with them and help develop a program that was unique to HP. Got another CEO very well.

Tonya J. Long: 26:27

And after I retired.

John McGowan: 26:29

he had reached out and said would you be interested in doing similar kinds of things for us as a consultant to be able to help us customize our training for future corporate clients? And since I was unemployed, it sounds really interesting and so I started. I did some classroom training and did some developing. The developing job was you could do from home, you could do with good quality telephone computer basically interview the sales organization leadership team.

John McGowan: 27:07

What is it that's bothering your sales? What are your competitors doing to you? What are your customers doing to you? What skills would you like to get better?

Tonya J. Long: 27:16

Which tactics would you?

John McGowan: 27:17

like to respond to Build that into a briefing profile for the instructor classroom so he knows the names of the key players. He knows all of the hot button issues. And then would build practice negotiation cases that were structured around or modeled for negotiating, but had their industry and the competitors' and customers' behaviors baked into them, competitors' and customers' behaviors baked into them.

John McGowan: 27:47

And so over the course of three years of doing that, did probably 40 assignments, everything from PG&E to companies in the food business learned lots of new industries and it turned out that a lot of the core level issues they were facing were common, but the tactics the customers would apply would be different. Some companies had literally a handful of key customers and some had thousands of customers. Some were very transactional. It was fascinating to get involved and engaged in that level but it was a whole new skill set.

Tonya J. Long: 28:26

Yeah, of course.

John McGowan: 28:27

One of the tactics, one of the skills I had developed hugely valuable was having a conversation and getting people to tell me things that they probably wouldn't tell their boss, and quite often the briefing to the instructors there would be information. How did you find out about that?

Tonya J. Long: 28:46

We did a lot of research.

John McGowan: 28:47

Yes, yes, I would occasionally get busted for it, but people are sometimes reluctant to say we're not doing this correctly to your manager or your worse, your manager's manager, but some harmless consultant on the telephone.

Tonya J. Long: 29:01

Yeah, here, I wish we would. I wish we do this differently. I wish we would change.

John McGowan: 29:04

I wish we'd do this differently. Anyway, that was the consulting transition. It was really challenging. It was fun. I hark back to the old Hewlett Packard. Hewlett Packard believed you should make money and make a contribution At some level. You should be making the world a better place or company more successful.

Tonya J. Long: 29:27

I still see that with my current friends who are at HPE.

John McGowan: 29:30

And I felt if I could enhance or if we could enhance the negotiation skills, we were helping the company perform better. And there are lots and lots of views and opinions about negotiation. Everybody has ours with highly principled. We never taught tactics.

Tonya J. Long: 29:47

We refused the courses in the old airline magazines. Yes, I remember those.

John McGowan: 29:53

Come to our hotel room for two days and we'll teach you about the Dutch crunch and the squeeze and the nibble and we didn't do that, it was what are you trying to get out of this negotiation? Spend some time trying to understand what they're trying to get out of it and try to figure out a way using a little bit of tension try to figure out in a principled way how to get there where both of you end up.

Tonya J. Long: 30:15

Yeah, I love it. I love it. So you've had a really wide range in career from a timeline perspective. So you've just, like you've, seen the Bay Area grow up from orchards to high rises, to large compounds, if you will, for companies. You've also seen the transition from largely analog to exclusively digital. My question there would be what do you think has been the most, in your experience, the most dramatic change that has occurred? Because we've really left behind analog and went to a completely digital business model.

John McGowan: 30:51

I kid you, when I started it was typewriters and mimeograph machines.

Tonya J. Long: 30:55

Okay, oh, the purple eight. Is that mimeograph? The?

John McGowan: 30:59

fax machine hadn't arrived yet.

Tonya J. Long: 31:01

Okay, okay, and it was the big black.

John McGowan: 31:03

IBM correcting selector. Sometimes if the boss really had a relationship with the secretary, she got a tan one. But they were big black typewriters and maybe telexes, and over the through the 80s and the 90s that morphed to the beginning of the PC and the beginning of the fax machine came along. About that time the mobile phone was a big change. Computing power became more personal. Now everybody has a mainframe in their pocket.

John McGowan: 31:39

And so computing, everybody takes that for granted. You've got a couple gigabits, a couple gigs of memory and you say what's the weather? Going to be tomorrow and they reach for their pocket and nobody has to remember anything because it's on your phone, and so that is a huge change, and now even if your phone doesn't know the answer, the phone will make it up with AI.

Tonya J. Long: 32:05

You're getting the hat on the AI conversation.

John McGowan: 32:09

I love it. The phone is getting smarter and smarter it is, and my watch is getting smarter.

Tonya J. Long: 32:14

And talking to your phone. Your watch is talking to your phone.

John McGowan: 32:16

If I misspeak, the phone will say the watch will say I didn't quite get that, can you?

Tonya J. Long: 32:21

say that again.

John McGowan: 32:23

I fell down yesterday and the phone said would you like me to call 911 for you? So this level of technology I remember at HP they used to talk about the days technology in the future would be just automatic, you wouldn't have to think about it. And the example they used was rental cars and the example they used was rental cars.

John McGowan: 32:45

All over the country in the 1990s, corporations would send an executive out to a strange town and this company with a big yellow or green sign would let him drive off in a car he'd never driven in without reading the owner's manual.

Tonya J. Long: 32:58

We were a yellow sign company and I always had printed copies. The Internet and MapQuest was big then, but I always had printed copies of my maps for every single day and where I was going. When I got in my rental car, Whether you had a Chevrolet or a Ford, you didn't read the manual Key went here and shifted there and the steering wheel turned to front and away you went.

John McGowan: 33:18

Computers have reached that point and gone past, where now you don't have to think about how do I turn it on?

Tonya J. Long: 33:25

or how do?

John McGowan: 33:26

I do something with it and that's been a huge evolution in the analog to digital.

Tonya J. Long: 33:34

The other one when.

John McGowan: 33:36

I started working at the. Westinghouse Corporation as one of 800 young engineers hired in the spring of 69, you went to work. You had a shift. I worked on a plant that sold steam turbines and engine rooms of ships to the Navy. The whistle blew at 4.15. All of the union workers would leave and the professional engineers would stick around another 20 minutes. And we're they. But then we go home and there was no telephone access, no work access. We were either at work or we were not at work.

John McGowan: 34:13

It was binary, and if you so when you went home for dinner, you went home for dinner, yeah, and bedtime stories and bath times and all those things I might talk to my wife about something funny or odd that happened at work, but it was a completely disconnected conversation from work and if I had to go to a dentist in the morning and I came in late and I missed a couple of phone calls, there would be a pink slip on my phone. Joe called. Here's his phone number call back wants pricing. Great, I could catch up. I never got a pink slip mail to my house.

Tonya J. Long: 34:47

Nobody called me at three in the mornings.

John McGowan: 34:49

I need financials for this upcoming bid.

Tonya J. Long: 34:54

I was either at work at home or not at work and today the last couple of years at. Agilent I had my phone in my pocket.

John McGowan: 35:06

I could be reached by text message anywhere. It was a GSM phone that was global. It didn't matter if I was trying to sleep in a hotel in Hong Kong or I was having breakfast in Germany, If somebody wanted to reach John.

Tonya J. Long: 35:19

I was reachable, you were reachable.

John McGowan: 35:21

And unless I was on an airplane. Now that safe haven is gone with internet aboard the airplane, but now it's 24 by 7, literally. And there's no turning it off. People don't even turn it off on vacation family time. I go take the dog for a walk in the park and all these parents are watching their kids on the sling looking at their phones or having conversations on their phone while they're pushing the kids on the sling or watching the kids. I understand that there's an efficiency payoff, but there's a human time.

Tonya J. Long: 35:58

It's pretty sad and I struggled with that I remember making a transfer in Heathrow and I was on my cell phone desperately trying to type out something to an employee that was non-critical and I was standing holding on to the tram. That stop, start, stop, start trying to type out something on my cell phone and I got so upset with myself because I was like this can wait, this is a I think it was a benefits question Some guy, his wife was pregnant and he wanted to ask what the paternity leave time was for our company and I was like this can wait, so I need to wait. We get conditioned into that, always on, always responsive, and I think that is a big shift from 20 years ago, 25 years ago, probably a little longer, I ran the first trip to Singapore in the late 90s or mid-90s and it hadn't hit the instrument side, but HP had a large semiconductor facility.

John McGowan: 36:52

And the general manager of that facility nicknamed Emperor and he told his staff that, if I send you a message, I expect a response within 30 minutes. Yeah, and he had absolute hiring and firing autonomy. The poor version of the H-3 way was a little different and everybody just said, oh okay, that's the way I will abide by this. And at the time, if this catches on, this could be trouble. And sure enough it caught on.

Tonya J. Long: 37:25

Most of my career has been an always-on.

John McGowan: 37:28

And it's.

Tonya J. Long: 37:31

I'm not thrilled watching.

John McGowan: 37:31

I understand. That time off the 30-day cross-country RV trip, the kids and the dog, and all of this. I made two concessions. I agreed that we had the old push-button, the payphone voicemail check, and I said I will check voicemail every couple days and I gave them three addresses with approximate dates where they could send a FedEx package if some document needed to get to me. But of the entire 30 days, that was the extent of my reconnecting with them and that model has shifted. Yeah, it has, it's the same.

Tonya J. Long: 38:14

But I think a lot of the things like me describing giving an answer about parental leave, you describing signing contracts. I do believe what's coming with the future of technology is going to eliminate a lot of that mundane sign-off, signatory, perfunctory kind of work.

John McGowan: 38:26

The contract is okay, sign it. Put the phone back in your pocket.

Tonya J. Long: 38:30

Yeah, that will change, yep sign-off, signatory, perfunctory kind of work. The contract is okay, sign it, put the phone back in your pocket. Yeah, that will change. Yep, it will be a big shift you have. When I started doing my AI journey, you were so good about sending me Santa Clara University law school forums or things that you saw online that you thought were interesting. In fact, you were quite the thorn in my side because you would be like, yeah, I might be bad and you kept sending me stuff. That was because there was a lot of consternation when generative AI first hit the market in a really big consumer way. It's a dark side. There is a dark side, but I think people are accepting and tolerating that. Good comes with bad. What's that been like for you to witness that transition? Because I witnessed it from inside my professional space. But I think you are an observer, but you're a very interested observer.

John McGowan: 39:18

I'm several steps away from the actual doing zone and it's engineers who go to law school and become attorneys are essentially trained. The glass is neither half full nor half empty, but it's possibly got a crack and might someday spring a leak, and here's how we can protect ourselves from a potential leak in the future. So that helps explain the sort of dark side perspective of looking always looking at what could go wrong, because that's what you do with many contracts. We've had arguments about the.

Tonya J. Long: 39:46

I'm not planning for this could go wrong, because that's what you do with many contracts. We've had arguments about the. I'm not planning for this to go wrong, John. That's it, yes.

John McGowan: 39:53

And within the industry, in the technology world, there is a track record of saying that technology by itself is just plain fascinating and cool. And how far can we push it?

Tonya J. Long: 40:06

Good for you. What can it?

John McGowan: 40:07

do next, and can I make the robot sing in three?

Tonya J. Long: 40:11

languages instead of two. You're staying up on trend. I love it.

John McGowan: 40:22

Can it make coffee or tea while it's singing in three languages and do my and? I'm part of a couple of regular Zoom meetings and we're now getting transcripts of the Zoom meeting typed up at the end of the meeting without anybody having to write anything.

Tonya J. Long: 40:32

They're pretty impressive, aren't they?

John McGowan: 40:33

Really good.

Tonya J. Long: 40:34

Yeah, yeah, really good.

John McGowan: 40:36

I am not critical of the technology.

Tonya J. Long: 40:39

And the more I've looked at it.

John McGowan: 40:42

There are early adopters, there's bleeding edge adopters. It's another technology, another tool set that is really not unlike the first computers that came out, some of them were truly junk, and some of them were ahead of their time and others nailed it, but the fear I have now, I still have you would. The thing is that there seems to be a bifurcation or a split between those who are going to participate and play with and use the technology and leverage it to their benefit and those that are going to be left out and going.

John McGowan: 41:19

I was just trying to get by as a customer support assistant with a headset and a telephone, and now that AI machine is answering tougher questions faster than I can. So what do I do next? And in some ways it almost the successful and the well-to-do and the sort of elite, the elites as some would describe them.

John McGowan: 41:49

They've been doing pretty well the last 10 or 20 years and those that lack the education and the ability to grab a hold of this technology and play with it have been doing relatively less well and might conceivably end up lesser. I find that troubling. Yes, because there are billions of people. I don't think even India or China or some of these other hugely populous countries are going to escape having to deal with the same issue. This is not a. Silicon Valley problem or a. Us problem and what is China?

John McGowan: 42:31

going to do if really smart robots over a lot of the low-cost manufacturing that millions of Chinese are doing, or coding AI tools are getting smarter and smarter at writing good code.

Tonya J. Long: 42:44

They are.

John McGowan: 42:45

And a lot of people in other parts of the world who are hanging on by writing software. But basically, what kind of software are they going to be able to write? A machine just kicked out 8,000 lines of code between breakfast and coffee break. Yep, the coder is.

Tonya J. Long: 43:05

And AI never takes vacation, never goes to a dental appointment, never takes parental leave, and the output is massive for what it will do.

John McGowan: 43:16

Grabbed onto it and tried to understand it and tried to leverage it, but it's a tool and in the same way that a typewriter or an iPad was a tool some people grab onto it and say what can this do for me? How?

Tonya J. Long: 43:35

can I use this?

John McGowan: 43:36

What will it do to help me do what I want to do? And they figure that out and they run with it. The people who look at it say I don't like that.

Tonya J. Long: 43:45

I'm afraid of it.

John McGowan: 43:46

It's going to hurt me. It might actually hurt because they just this is not a technology where you can sit on the sidelines. It doesn't apply to me because it will apply to everybody.

Tonya J. Long: 43:58

So what is your advice? Because I think you are a poster child. I'm losing my voice. I think you're a poster child for a generation of people that didn't grow up on technology. You didn't grow up with an iPhone in your hand. You had to adapt to that. But now AI is a whole different level of activity and dimensions of things that you can do For people of your generation. What's your advice to people who have been on the fence, who haven't really been ready to try to do things in AI yet? What would you suggest they start with?

John McGowan: 44:33

It's just because we grow up with a telephone on the wall, the rotary dial, or if it rang you must answer it. Very different today's the advice is even if you just stick a finger in or two fingers, ChatGPT is free.

Tonya J. Long: 44:50

But I highly encourage people to do the $20 upgrade.

John McGowan: 44:54

You can get an upgrade if you can afford it. Try it. You can't hurt it. You can't. There is no way to break ChatGPT for an average human.

John McGowan: 45:04

You can't break it. Play with it, Try it, See with it. Try it See what it will do. You can upload pictures and let it tell it to redesign a picture. It's at first interaction it will seem a little bit dumb and you can tell it that was quite, that wasn't correct. Try it this way, or make that bigger, or remove this from picture or substitute. You're having a conversation with the machine is the way to look at it and the same is true.

John McGowan: 45:32

If you ask it to write something, write a short story about a young boy and his dog, and their friend falls in the you can. It'll come back with a and tell it how long.

Tonya J. Long: 45:43

And then ask the story to be written in German, and then ask the story to be written in the style of oh, I don't know who's your favorite author.

John McGowan: 45:51

Carl Hyasson.

Tonya J. Long: 45:52

You're supposed to say Tonya Long. I'm sorry, Tonya Long In the style of.

John McGowan: 45:57

Ernest Hemingway or Tonya Long.

Tonya J. Long: 45:59

Yeah.

John McGowan: 46:00

Yeah, there was a two years ago, three years ago, a famous Sunday Doonesbury that talked about the emerging career of being the prompter and learning how to prompt an AI tool by asking the right questions being the right instructions.

Tonya J. Long: 46:18

And it's iterative, you start here.

John McGowan: 46:20

That didn't work. You try a different line.

Tonya J. Long: 46:22

Didn't work.

John McGowan: 46:25

You say no, fix it differently. So it's, that's one opportunity. Just try the technologies that are out there With the phone. You can edit photographs on the phone. Practice playing with the phone for editing photographs, Just playing. Just don't be afraid of it. It's a short answer.

Tonya J. Long: 46:43

I think you've drawn a good parallel to when everyone got smartphones and started taking pictures of every activity of life and then started editing those photos. It was a progression of activity and most people now have smartphones, statistically, and most play with photos and it's play. I think it's the word play that's important. Photos and it's play. I think it's the word play that's important. Find something that entertains you, that serves you, and make your life a little richer for playing with technology that adds to what you enjoy doing.

John McGowan: 47:15

One more quick one. As an instrument rated pilot, I used to carry a three inch binder yes, five and a half by eight inch, seven holes with charts and plates, and fold open territorial chart for every approach, for every airport. It's just a separate handbook for the basic information about the air elevation hours of operation. How to turn the lights on. Now we have an iPad. Yeah, the iPad has a killer app that is like Lotus 1-2-3, when it hit the. Ibm PC. Every pilot essentially has an iPad on their lap.

John McGowan: 47:53

It has every approach for every airport. It has real-time weather on a moving map, it has all the frequencies, all the phone numbers, everything you ever wanted to know to fly, and, if you can afford it, it will actually talk to the autopilot in the airplane. So he said here's my flight plan, boom. It sends it to the government, the government sends you the expected routing and then it sends you the clearance back to the IPAC.

Tonya J. Long: 48:15

no more calling the phone, Nice.

John McGowan: 48:17

Yeah, and then you push a button, sends it to the instrument and you get a magenta line. And as soon as you take off, the autopilot will fly the magenta line through space. When I learned how to fly on instruments 45 years ago. I had charts on my lap, I had two different radios.

Tonya J. Long: 48:33

I can't imagine, and I know how driving is like driving in a city when I travel largely for work, driving in a city using much less advanced technology, but I don't worry about it. I used to plan extensively for when I would be on a trip in a city and driving where I wasn't familiar. And now you just arrive and plug in.

John McGowan: 48:53

So that's what technology is doing for us. That technology is so powerful that it just blew up all of the chargers and all of the people who made the binders. The airlines were a little slow because they're very conservative. But there is an airline pilot in the world that still carries around a book full of charts.

Tonya J. Long: 49:09

They carry a spare iPad unless their first iPad dies.

John McGowan: 49:12

Yes, but that's. The tools can be helpful, but you can't be afraid of the tools.

Tonya J. Long: 49:18

Yeah, yeah, thank you. I appreciate that. I want to end with family, because we've talked during this conversation about you having kids when you were in law school and then going through the RVing early days with kids. Now your kids are grown and gone Not yet at the point of having their own kids, but they're the age of that going on. Your daughter lives internationally in Europe.

John McGowan: 49:42

In a lovely village in Switzerland.

Tonya J. Long: 49:43

In a lovely village in Switzerland. In a lovely village in Switzerland. What has that transition been like? Because that's a big RESET to go from all, because it is always on dad. There's never a time when you're not dad.

John McGowan: 49:53

until now, it's not easy because you're always a dad, you're always going to help fix booboos. Let me take care of that problem for you and instead of just taking a step back and saying, do you need help? And our daughter honors law school, built a wonderful career, I forget what are the last ones.

Tonya J. Long: 50:20

I got this, dad, okay, why?

John McGowan: 50:22

take it and same with our son. He's more of the artistic side, not an engineer, so a little bit more of a challenge to settle into a career you're really happy with and it's got to be one both you enjoy and that you're good at. All that has to line up.

Tonya J. Long: 50:41

But he's got a good life. He's there, a nice wife and a French bulldog, right yeah.

John McGowan: 50:46

But both of them very happy. I still find myself saying do I need to come over and pick you up and give you a ride? I got it, dad.

Tonya J. Long: 50:53

I got Uber.

John McGowan: 50:54

So we're there, we're backstopping them. We would do anything needed bail them out if they got in trouble. But in their forties, I have to remind, when we were 40, we were grownups. And instead of saying our little kids they're grownups and that's a difficult transition, but it's been fun because, as grownups. They're behaving according to their plan and we're, in some ways, we're just happy spectators and potentially enablers, but that's a different role, and they're forever cheerleader.

Tonya J. Long: 51:30

You will forever be their biggest advocate and supporting all the success. That you built a foundation with them.

John McGowan: 51:37

They may be choosing the home we go into. So we're very fortunate to have great relationships with both, and both of them took widely different directions in terms of pursuing a career and the first and most challenging hurdle was it's their life, their career, not ours. And I remember that story my dad telling me what I had to do to be able to get a job and have a good life and we tried really hard not to do that.

Tonya J. Long: 52:06

Yeah, and we didn't.

John McGowan: 52:07

We said you want to do this? Great, change your mind. Okay, we'll do something different. Can we help?

Tonya J. Long: 52:12

I got this, so that's how I think you've transitioned well into moving children into adulthood outside the home. You have, and it gives you time to do other things. Speaking of other things, what's on your list? Your bucket list is shorter these days because, you've done so much, it's actually getting longer.

John McGowan: 52:35

This is the wee time. I hate to say we're approaching our sell-by date, but we've got an episode dealing with aging parents with medical issues and being caregivers for the parents of many people this generation.

John McGowan: 52:50

After the kid parenting so there's parent parenting then comes the medical issues of our own to wrestle with and go through. So now we spend more time visiting back to Switzerland. Orion River Cruise I'm looking forward to oh good. And the Airstream has never been to Alaska. Okay, Probably should go. Canadian maritime provinces are on the bucket list. They've been on the list for 12 years and that list keeps growing.

John McGowan: 53:19

I love it so the only thing holding me back is are we healthy enough and you rearrange some of the other volunteer stuff to make that time. So we can go do it.

Tonya J. Long: 53:30

I'm going to point that out that he has to reprioritize his volunteer activities to get in some bucket list items. That's living a good life, John, it really is I really?

John McGowan: 53:40

I can't complain. We have been very fortunate. We're pretty happy, looking forward to the next couple of years.

Tonya J. Long: 53:45

So I'm going to end with an impromptu speed round of questions. Let's see, if you had to give up your airplane or your Airstream, which one would you give up? See, these are good, I don't.

John McGowan: 54:09

Got to choose one, probably the airplane I've been flying more than 60 years FAA Wright Brothers Master Pilot Award. But at some point the FAA and the medical community and the insurance community is going to say you might be a little too old for this you can keep airstreaming until you fall over. So I think I get more years. I support that.

John McGowan: 54:35

I can't get the airstream in the airplane, okay, and I've nearly lost the ability to fly the airplane a couple months ago, so it's a warning bell from the universe saying the time may be coming.

Tonya J. Long: 54:48

Okay, Not there yet. Good. Next lightning round question Electric vehicles are I've forgotten, is it I've forgotten the dates that California, the state of California, 2030.

John McGowan: 54:59

Is moving.

Tonya J. Long: 54:59

It was. I'm not sure we're tracking to that, but they're making you know this. They're making an EV airstream, an electrically powered airstream. Will you transition to electric when it's time?

John McGowan: 55:14

Not to an electric airstream, potentially to an electric vehicle. We're still years away from having an electric vehicle that can do everything an internal combustion can. Our son works for an electric car company in Palo Alto. I previously worked for a named electric car company in Fremont. They can do a lot of things really well, and some of the newer ones coming from other parts of the world are astonishing, but they can't pull a trailer 300 miles between charging and they can't drive to Tucson and back.

John McGowan: 55:48

In a day We'll get there on. It's not going to be 2030.

Tonya J. Long: 55:53

Okay.

John McGowan: 55:54

And there are enough voters and citizens in the middle of this country, south, that are not willing to give up their pickup trucks just yet. Yeah, it's an impressive technology, but it's going to move slower than some people think it is, but you will adopt when it's time.

Tonya J. Long: 56:10

And if you had to adopt, to keep airstreaming because the environmental requirements were for you to pull with.

John McGowan: 56:17

If I had to, I would If they outlawed big V8 powered trucks.

Tonya J. Long: 56:21

Like you have. Yes, everything is a compromise, okay.

John McGowan: 56:26

It's not very fuel-efficient but it does a really fine job of pulling a 7,000-pound truck. So it rests between jobs. Yeah, not exactly lightning light.

Tonya J. Long: 56:35

Okay, it's fine, it's good, let's see, let's find a couple more. You've talked about airport hamburgers. What are they called?

John McGowan: 56:43

You've talked about airport hamburgers. What are they called?

Tonya J. Long: 56:45

Well, they used to be $100 hamburgers when you'd fly into a small regional airport and eat at their little diner restaurant. So airport hamburger or five-star restaurant.

John McGowan: 56:57

Absolutely the hamburger.

Tonya J. Long: 56:59

Perfect yeah.

John McGowan: 57:01

Anything over three stars, I won't go to. Perfect, yeah, anything over three stars I won't go to. I don't enjoy looking at small portions of artistic food plate handcrafted by other people do, okay, fine. That's not me.

Tonya J. Long: 57:12

What's the most interesting thing Dave Packard ever said to you?

John McGowan: 57:15

I actually got to know Dave because he cared about government and I was with him one night. And I was with him one night. I was told I should follow him around as a bodyguard to Ricky's Hyatt House in Palo Alto, okay, where he was going to give a speech, a dinner speech. And I'm walking in and. I asked him a question back in the 80s about the house and the garage on Addison Avenue. And so are you excited? Do you think it should be turned into a museum? Would you like to see?

Tonya J. Long: 57:49

That's history.

John McGowan: 57:49

I don't care about that. He said His entire focus was today and looking forward. And I was shocked. This is the famous garage where you start. It was yesterday. I don't care. He had no interest in looking over his shoulder at what happened 20 years ago. He was focused on 20 years out.

Tonya J. Long: 58:09

I love that Last question and you gave me a great segue for it. What is in your 20 years out that you want to have? No stop it that you want to have done in that 20 years? What's the bucket list item? If health and financials are not a concern at all and you can do anything, what do you want that to be?

John McGowan: 58:34

I think I'd like to relive the summer of 68, when I spent 10 weeks traveling through Europe in a Volkswagen camper bus. My parents offered to help with a graduation present and it ended up being between my first and second senior years and agreed to front the cost of the VW bus if I sold it at the end of the summer and paid them back. Sold it at the end of the summer and paid them back.

John McGowan: 59:03

So a college friend and I flew on Icelandic airways with propellers through Reykjavik to Brussels or Luxembourg and started our adventure with picking it up at the Volkswagen factory and put 13,000 miles on it in 10 weeks from the tip of Inverness in northern Scotland down below Rome sleeping in the bus grabbing showers at campgrounds and it's out of all. And I would probably do that a little more elegantly.

Tonya J. Long: 59:38

Yes, life gives us that opportunity, sometimes Our daughter doing that.

John McGowan: 59:42

But I think that would be fun to go back and just not so many Americans give themselves the week. A vacation is defined as the week and Europeans we were with the trailer, british Columbia and the Canadian Rockies. All we found were other Europeans with rented motorhomes because they come for three or four weeks.

Tonya J. Long: 1:00:04

And the Americans look at it and go.

John McGowan: 1:00:06

I can't get from here to Canadian Rockies and look around and get back, so I'm going to have to go somewhere else I can get to.

Tonya J. Long: 1:00:13

Disneyland in a week and back Right. Different experience. I can't give myself two weeks because that's all the vacation I've got. I've got to save a couple days, it's true, and so doing that in a more relaxed approach and just not being in a hurry. It's a great place.

John McGowan: 1:00:27

Can we stay another night or two?

Tonya J. Long: 1:00:29

Yep.

John McGowan: 1:00:31

And.

Tonya J. Long: 1:00:31

I heard that's really great over there. We go over to that little village.

John McGowan: 1:00:34

I hear they have a terrific chocolate factory.

Tonya J. Long: 1:00:36

Yep, we're going to look forward, then, to you finding a way to make those things happen.

John McGowan: 1:00:41

I think it'd be a ball.

Tonya J. Long: 1:00:41

So, John, you've gone from corporate executive to consultant, from baby dad to adult, full grown adult, successful dad. You have made the transitions from full employment to full pursuing of your dreams. So I think those things have no expiration date for you and look forward to seeing you on many more campouts and adventures as you continue to grow.

John McGowan: 1:01:06

Fingers crossed In your bucket, go along with that wish Wonderful. That's the plan.

Tonya J. Long: 1:01:12

Fantastic, and we will do this again in a couple more years. We'll have another one, maybe wireless. We'll treat us a little better on the next round.

John McGowan: 1:01:18

Okay.

Tonya J. Long: 1:01:19

Thank you. Thank you so much, everyone. This has been John McGowan and Tonya Long on RESET with Tonya from the Tomales Bay area. You've heard the chirping of birds and a few service vehicles going by, and this has been a lovely way to do my first Bella podcast in conjunction with radio station KPCR 92.9 LP out of Los Gatos, California. Have a wonderful day. We'll see you next week on Thursday at 11 am. Thanks for joining us on RESET. Remember, transformation is a journey, not a destination. So until next time, keep exploring what's possible. I'm Tonya Long and this is home. This is RESET.