Meet Justin Wink, Engineer Turned Emotions Expert

Tonya J. Long 0:00

Hello and welcome to RESET with Tonya here at KPCR 92.9 in gorgeous Los Gatos . It is a beautiful , sunny , bright , blue day and the forecast for tonight is Justin .

Justin Wenck, PhD 0:14

It's dark . It's going to be dark tonight .

Tonya J. Long 0:17

I have been absolutely worthless getting ready for this session because Justin and I go back what at least 11 months now , and Justin always balances things out with a heavy dose of humor . So I am here today with Justin Wink , friend , fellow , you're a fellow in so many ways . You're a fellow author . Actually . You have your book here , Engineered to Love .

Justin Wenck, PhD 0:38

I do for those watching on the YouTube or the wherever . Two years Hard to believe .

Tonya J. Long 0:44

time flies Hard to believe , two years Engineered to love , and Justin also is a very experienced podcaster with his podcast E-Emotions Engineering . I think your podcast name is Energy .

Tonya J. Long 0:56

Engineering , emotions and Energy so you got that E alliteration going and as a Southern gal I love my alliteration . But you know we're here to talk about your resets and so as I introduced Justin , just a little , Justin's had plenty of resets . He got a PhD in engineering and went off to do the deep tech work with a big company name in the valley that's been around for 50 more years Intel . So you've been at several engineering tech companies , but the role that I most equivalent you to is Intel , because then you launched from Intel . You were delivering yoga classes at Intel . That made you a little different as a senior member of the engineering team . And then you went on to open up a practice where you are engineering emotions that's the name of your company and then you wrote a book on engineered to love , which I think is remarkable . I'm going to be stereotypical when I say this Engineers don't talk about love , and you do , and you're talking about all kinds of love of self , love of family , love of purpose , and it's just very impressive .

Justin Wenck, PhD 1:58

Thank you so much , Tonya . Yeah , it's great to be here in a real radio station . I haven't been in a radio studio since I was in college . It's so funny . The call letters are on KPCR and the last radio station that I was on it was college radio . It was Cal Poly Radio , KPCR . So it's the same letters just mixed around . I think they were 92.3 . I could be wrong , Maybe , and it was great getting to come in here and listen on the way .

Tonya J. Long 2:24

In Did wrong and it was great getting to come in here and listen on the way , and did you know that this station can be heard up to three miles away ? That was about how far away we went . No , here .

Justin Wenck, PhD 2:31

Yeah , I was about three miles away when I finally could get my car to actually tune into the station . So a little tip for the management is you want to put that transmitter up high , like on top of the desk or something ?

Tonya J. Long 2:41

So it can be , so we can talk about that later . Because actually our station director took a little weekend trip down south , close to SLO , where you , I think , went to undergrad , and he was able to pick up the station . I shouldn't admit , but it was like Paso Robles it was . He had there was . He was so excited , there was such great range .

Justin Wenck, PhD 3:00

I don't know , oh I don't know , maybe as I'm coming from the north and the coast here , so it's different .

Tonya J. Long 3:04

Yeah , maybe .

Justin Wenck, PhD 3:05

I'm teasing , I'm having some fun . We're also simulcasting . It's on broadcast worldwide on the web , because I was able to pick that up from home and so it's great to kind of get to get comfortable with the radio . So you've been listening to kpcrorg .

Tonya J. Long 3:19

Yeah , I'm hopeful , like my friends in Tennessee . Since we publish this ahead of time , they listen and they send me notes . I wish they'd do likes . Instead of sending me private Facebook messages , I'll pick any of the love I can get .

Justin Wenck, PhD 3:31

Oh yeah , it's all good to get the love and I used to tell people that I'm a recovering engineer , but I do now feel like I'm a fully recovered engineer , that I'm human that can do engineering . There's so many things that I can do and engineer , that I'm human that can do engineering and I can . There's so many things that I can do and we all can do that . So it's often in these times of loss , transition , where things don't go the way that we realize we're so much more than we we get attached to .

Tonya J. Long 3:55

But yeah , so what prompted that shift for you ? Because you know you made quite the commitment . Yet you went all the way to get a PhD in electrical , I think , engineering , yeah , and then the work of being in a really monstrously sized tech company . And then you took that yoga class and went in your own direction in that world . What was behind that transition for you ?

Justin Wenck, PhD 4:18

So much of this transition was motivated by horrible , crippling depression , I would say . And

Depression as a Catalyst for Change

Justin Wenck, PhD 4:25

what got me into yoga and meditation was when I was in grad school . I had some really challenging depression that forced me to go get help from therapy and even some pharmacology , and I was like I don't want to be stuck with this stuff , like what else is there ? And so I got into meditation , I got into yoga and that was , and then about 10 years later I ended up having kind of like another round around the COVID time , and that was really .

Justin Wenck, PhD 4:53

But I'd like to let people know that I feel like that era of the pain , the challenging emotions , the losing your job , losing your relationship , the fear that well , if I don't do this , then I'm going to starve or I'm going to be a loser , I'm going to be a failure . I feel like those times are going away and we are moving towards the you do things because , well , that sounds fun or I don't know , that just delights my heart and that's . I think that's where we're going and it's going to be a shift for a lot of people that have been used to the old way of you wait until oh my gosh , something's on fire . So I guess now I better figure out where I actually want to go , because I can't be here anymore . And so instead , you know we're looking around and oh my gosh , look over there , isn't that a great place to go . Maybe I'll just do a radio show .

Tonya J. Long 5:38

You know what I think .

Justin Wenck, PhD 5:39

What do I have ? You have a lot of things Besides a merman shirt .

Tonya J. Long 5:43

Besides a merman shirt , that is a great shirt you're wearing today . You have curiosity . You know , you and I live in a very intense world . The people that we are wired to be here to help on their journeys . It's pretty intense living in the Bay Area and people often live in scarcity and fear . Yeah , and I'm guilty , and people often live in scarcity and fear , yeah , and .

Tonya J. Long 6:03

I'm guilty , the conversations we have , but I am far from arriving at being better at this . It's a journey , but you really have a consistent framework of always being like . That is so cool . What will that mean for us ? Where I'm like , how am I going to make this work ? And you're like , oh , I could think of all the ways to make this work , and I think that curiosity has led you to happiness yeah everything is possibility for you .

Justin Wenck, PhD 6:31

Yeah , because it really has been a of how can I actually experience more happiness . It's been a journey and there's a little bit of those . You know the cliche of oh when all this time and I found out that really what I had the whole time . You wrote the book based on AI through the lens of the Wizard of Oz , where she kind of realizes , oh , you probably know what the , but she had it all along .

Justin Wenck, PhD 6:54

And it's like my source yeah , my source of happiness is with me , period end of story , and it's within you and it's within each of us and really it's . It radiates the other way , like our outside is a reflection of what's going on inside . So it's everything around you sucks and it's because what's going on inside is pretty awful , not good . That's the bad news . The good news is , you can change it . You just got to look in and do the shifting and there's lots of ways , lots of people out here , helping those shifts .

Tonya J. Long 7:22

That's a hard message for some people because because all they hear in that is it's my fault , I feel bad . So for me , for the way I receive people and try to help them see things to remind them it's their fault they feel bad .

Tonya J. Long 7:41

There's a fine line and and people are such perfectionists out of here , out here right , people that we consistently deal with have been top of their game and everything they've done since they walked at age two months yeah , and they are . They are very high achievers , intent and surrounded by high achievers . So the comparison which I've always said , that comparison robs us of joy .

Justin Wenck, PhD 8:03

Yeah .

Tonya J. Long 8:04

And it does . But I think that we I'm saying you and me we have to get past just focusing on the message that you feel bad , if you choose to , Because people need help arriving at a different place more naturally .

Justin Wenck, PhD 8:21

Yeah , place more naturally , yeah , and what I would say is that for men , for many of us and for many of you listening , that it's like things have happened to you that you , you , yeah , and it's it's not your fault , I'd like to shift it . It's not your fault , it's your opportunity . Yeah , to shift it it's . I was at a gathering and there was an opportunity to be taught like dancing and stuff like that , and the dance instructors that it was the woman had like this great accent and she was like now , just be like a baby , just flow with it , just be like a baby and don't worry about things , let your body do and don't worry and things like that .

Justin Wenck, PhD 8:55

And in so many ways we are like babies . We like to think that , oh , I'm an adult and things like that , but it's like a baby . They don't know everything that's necessarily going on , they're still figuring out their senses and their capabilities and we're continuously like that . And it's once we realize , wait , I see what's going on , I see my ability . Now it's your opportunity Before things were happening to you .

Justin Wenck, PhD 9:16

But once you grow up and the thing is there's no timeline on this I don't know . I hear people talk about kids and nieces and things and so-and-so , is not walking yet or not talking yet because there's all these developmental timelines . But on these types of things of like joy , happiness , there's no timeline . It's like some people they get it when they're a kid , some people get it when they're an adult , some people get it just before they die , some people they're not going to get it in this lifetime and I'm not here to force anybody on any timeline , but if anybody's , hey , I think I'm ready . I'm curious , and that's when the teachers there's that saying , the teacher appears when the student is ready .

Tonya J. Long 9:56

The teacher's always been there , it's just the teacher's being patient , the teacher's there always , and what you're saying about timelines , I think is pretty important , because everybody wants what they want right now .

Curiosity as a Path to Happiness

Tonya J. Long 10:15

I think is pretty important because everybody wants what they want right now . And there's plenty of history around us about the people that in years or activities that were hard before they got to Nevada , and so that's what I try to remind people , because we all think I'm working so hard . There's a little bit of I deserve this right now .

Justin Wenck, PhD 10:37

Yeah .

Tonya J. Long 10:37

And you do , but learning is part of that journey .

Justin Wenck, PhD 10:40

Yeah , and I get that and towards the end of the show .

Tonya J. Long 10:46

I'll share something so that you're holding out , you're waiting . Oh yeah , it's a code word .

Justin Wenck, PhD 10:48

You're going to ask me for this at the end , but you know , stick around for the end of the show . I'll share something of how you can get what you want right now , cause now's the only time you can actually get anything .

Tonya J. Long 10:56

You're not going to wait another 45 minutes for that .

Justin Wenck, PhD 10:58

Well , I guess they can fast forward , or whatever forward .

Tonya J. Long 11:02

It's all good . Let's go back to your dark days of engineering . Right , it wasn't dark days , I'm sure there were things about it . But when did you , when and how did you recognize that you needed to make a shift ? Because I think you were in what many would consider an elevated place , a prestigious place , and you chose to move beyond that into something I wouldn't say it's radically different . In activity . You still maintain ties to that because those are the people that you help . So that was part of your learning experience . But what helped you recognize that the discomfort was enough ? You mentioned depression , but what helped you make a choice to actively do something different ?

Justin Wenck, PhD 11:49

It was , yeah , the sort of the pain of it's either I do something different or why even be on this earth in this form anymore . And so , once getting to that state of being , it really does create the gateway , because now I guess anything's easier because it's the alternative is just annihilation from this experience , and I just that was that seemed . I'll be honest , that always seemed like even more too much work for me .

Tonya J. Long 12:15

I'm just like that just seems like such a hassle to try to um , it is just it .

Justin Wenck, PhD 12:17

And so then it's . And then it seemed like usually it'd be something where it's . I guess I could try this . There'd be there would . I guess I could try this . There would have been something that would have been sprinkled into my mind that then it's . Oh , I guess I could go to this meditation place .

Justin Wenck, PhD 12:31

I loved listening to radio growing up . I listened to all sorts of talk radio and Howard Stern , and I just remember him talking about how hard his childhood was , but that learning like transcendental meditation changed his life . And so that seed was buried inside of me . And then , when it got too hard for me , I was like , let me go look out for meditation . And so that seed was like buried inside of me . And then , when it got too hard for me , I was like , let me go look out for meditation . And also he had talked about going to therapy and so I could go get a therapist . And then once I got going , it was . My journey has really been very incremental . It's never been the Tony Robbins school math take massive action , do massive transformation , change things . Right now , see how big my head is . Like your head can be twice as huge , as you've got to change now and burn it all . That's not working and it's like that's . It doesn't have to be that way .

Tonya J. Long 13:09

It's like that must mean that you've watched some of the the available content out there for those genres .

Justin Wenck, PhD 13:18

I've yeah , I've gone to those spaces . They have their time and their place , and so some people . But I found for me it's little incremental stuff . Just my first position in Intel was doing analog circuit design and after a couple of years I'm like I don't enjoy being around these people because they're not really all that human .

Justin Wenck, PhD 13:35

Maybe I could try being around marketing people or just other like sometimes just these like little tiny steps can have big changes over a lifetime of . Oh okay , I can be around different people and they'll have a different perspective , and then I need to use different tools or learn different ways of being .

Justin Wenck, PhD 14:01

It's okay , I'm still technical , but now I've got to learn some business-y stuff and think about how my message is being perceived and how am I being perceived ? And yeah , so it's been very incremental , I would say . So there really has been a journey over a couple decades . At this point , and it's like that's . I like to say that I've now figured out some ways that can speed that up for people , because that's one of the things that I'm really good at , because your experience and what you learned didn't work .

Tonya J. Long 14:19

And what did work ? You can save people the time and energy that you spent getting there , I love it .

Tonya J. Long 14:25

But if somebody wants to take two decades , like they can , but if they want to compress that into two years , you don't know how you do know how many , how many late 20 year olds I've said please go to therapy now . Don't get to be 50 and then do your good therapy and then have squandered 20 good years where you were doing relationships wrong . This is typically . It's typically and you know who you are if you're out there listening . I've said to people go now and that's funny , I know you don't make a lot of money right now because you know of the place in life you're just getting started .

Tonya J. Long 14:56

Get yourself squared away so that you go into relationships whole and healthy and you don't waste 20 years on pain from relationships , and I've got some good success stories under my belt of people who have done that and are just remarkably transformed in how they look at them at themselves so they're so , then their relationships are more fulfilling and clear yeah yeah , I'm gonna take one second real quick and do a quick station identifier .

Tonya J. Long 15:24

We are at KPCR , lp 92.9 in Los Gatos and sister station KMRT LP 101.9 out of Santa Cruz . It's a beautiful day at Pirate Cat Radio . We are here with RESET , with Tonya , with my good friend Justin Wink my wicked friend Justin Wink , my wicked friend Justin Wink . That is a . That's a reflection on our past . We , we did a podcast right before Wicked was released back in the fall , and you were very thoughtful because you , you did the podcast at the time and you did because my book was based on the Wizard of Oz theme , and then we went and saw the Wicked movie the next weekend together and it was a lot of fun .

Justin Wenck, PhD 16:05

Yeah , and I ended up really enjoying it .

Tonya J. Long 16:08

Musicals not necessarily my thing , but it was well done and fun and I was glad I went and it was very thoughtful of you and it gave you a conversation point for all the people that are in your life that would have yeah . Have you seen Wicked ? Because it was such a big release when it came out .

Justin Wenck, PhD 16:22

Yeah .

Tonya J. Long 16:23

Yeah , good . So when it came out , yeah , yeah , good . So something you said right before the the station . Id made me write down finding your tribe because you were you talked about . Should I go to hang out with marketing people , with the engineers ? Should I hang out with people that think and feel and act differently ? So finding your tribe , I think , is such an important part of evolving and I think part of finding your tribe is being willing to let go of what you have .

Justin Wenck, PhD 16:52

Yeah .

Tonya J. Long 16:53

So did you have to let go ? You let go of the identity as being a large public company software leader . You let go of that identity .

Justin Wenck, PhD 17:04

Yeah , it'd be nice to say that .

Justin Wenck, PhD 17:06

Oh , that was such a conscious decision yet in reality , it was one of the one

Learning from Loss

Justin Wenck, PhD 17:12

of the releases that was a little bit thrust upon me , I like to say I was liberated from my job , but I was . I was part of a layoff as part of a layoff , and it was a one of one of many in the past few years , gut-wrenching experiences of just what happened . What do you mean ? And yet also I've learned that in any and all loss , there ends up being so much more to gain , absolutely .

Tonya J. Long 17:35

Say that again .

Justin Wenck, PhD 17:36

In any loss , there's so much to be gained . Because if we just take the simple metaphor of right now , I have a book in my hand . But let's say , if Tonya had $100,000 she wanted to give me , I can't take the hundred thousand dollars from tanya unless I'm willing to let go of this book , and I just dropped it . And I wonder if that showed up on the . I don't know anyway , but it it really is like .

Justin Wenck, PhD 17:57

We often , always , want more in our life , yet we never want to let go of anything and it's at some point the universe however you , your life , you , whatever it will it tries gently to go .

Justin Wenck, PhD 18:10

This is not for you , this is not for you . But at some point it's going to get louder , more forceful , and that's sometimes when big things happen , like you get fired or a divorce or a breakup or somebody dies , even because I've experienced loss of my mother , grandmother , sister in like the last three-ish years , and it's also allowed me to really look at what are my relationships and I'm so grateful for the relationships that have come into my life since these losses and things like that , and I know that it's a way of me growing and growing with them even though they're no longer here and I've been able to grow , since I'm not at a tech company anymore the things I've been able to do and experience even though I was able to do a lot without having to spend a lot of time , but it was still like I'm beholden to who's writing the salary check and , yeah , and you moved .

Tonya J. Long 18:59

I think what you moved into , whether it was intentional or not at the time , has given you far more choice and agency in what you do , and that agency , I think for many of us , leads to better fulfillment and happiness .

Justin Wenck, PhD 19:13

Oh yeah , and there's probably many people out there that have gotten into things and they have some idea of what it means to be successful in it . There can be such a gift in not being successful in something yet , because success can be such a trap . There's the term the golden handcuffs 100% .

Justin Wenck, PhD 19:30

But any type of success can be a golden handcuffs . If you do something and all of a sudden you have 100,000 people that love that , can you do anything different and keep those people ? Probably not , so that's going to be something even harder to let go of . So if you've gotten into something and it's oh , it's not going , it's like you just might be building one of what might be required of a few skills before you get to your really big thing , and if you got too big too soon , it might actually slow you down . I've done a lot of things where I've at times been like oh why am I not good at this ?

Justin Wenck, PhD 20:02

It's not quote unquote successful . And then a year later , I'm like , oh , I'm so glad that didn't work out , because I'm sick of that now .

Tonya J. Long 20:09

We were talking about loss and you and I have some of the same losses , identical losses , in our lives divorces , a divorce each , not the full each , but anyway I digress . But being divorced is a loss . Losing a job , we've both done that is a loss . We've both lost our parents . You still had your dad . Yeah , tremendous loss . And in Engineered to Love . You talk about being engineered to love and how that relates to loss . I should have prepared ahead and picked the passage for you to read . That would have been very prepared of me , because you've got some real zingers in your book . Because you've got some real zingers in your book .

Justin Wenck, PhD 20:47

I do tend to like , yeah , good quotes come out , and luckily some of them made it into the book , because some of them they just go out , and I think a recent one that came to me that I'm like . I think this is a cool thought . It was almost like the hierarchy of power , like just power is actually the lowest form , then there's power with others and the highest form of power is the power within .

Tonya J. Long 21:09

Oh yes , power . Power with power within , because that's about agency and choice and people choose . I'm circling back to loss . A lot of people initially will look at loss as just as it was taken from them .

Justin Wenck, PhD 21:24

Yeah .

Tonya J. Long 21:24

Instead of what it makes available for them .

Justin Wenck, PhD 21:27

Yeah , because I think a lot of people look at it kind of how I looked at what happened after my first experience of drinking jungle juice in college . What is jungle juice ? So jungle juice is .

Tonya J. Long 21:38

Is it alcoholic ?

Justin Wenck, PhD 21:39

It's alcoholic .

Tonya J. Long 21:39

Okay .

Justin Wenck, PhD 21:40

It's alcoholic where I believe it's . Just you get a big container and you just start throwing in whatever alcohols and juices , you just mix it all up and then you just scoop it up and drink it , so the sweet juice takes .

Tonya J. Long 21:53

We had a name for that that was different . I forgot .

Justin Wenck, PhD 21:55

There's probably different names based on what you know , but it's just lots of hard alcohol and then lots of juice .

Tonya J. Long 22:01

To cover , to mask the burn .

Justin Wenck, PhD 22:02

Yeah , yeah . So it'll get you messed up up . You might not even know , and then you've got all this nasty , cheap whatever okay , but you were partaking of jungle juice .

Tonya J. Long 22:11

I derailed us with what is jungle ?

Justin Wenck, PhD 22:13

yeah , so my first experience that I might have had a lot too much of that and went to sleep passed out on my bed and I awoken to a whole bunch of vomit in my bed and my reaction was who did this to me ?

Tonya J. Long 22:31

Oh , good story . Now you're okay . And who did this to me ?

Justin Wenck, PhD 22:34

Yeah , yeah , yeah , somebody . And I feel like when we experienced loss , it's who did this to me . It's something someone's where it's really . It's like I'm part of this , like I was part of this . I might not have been aware , but when you step back , it's like we are often part of the loss and the loss can be , is ultimately for our benefit .

Justin Wenck, PhD 22:54

At least that's how I choose to look at it , and I think everyone can look at it that way too , because it's like we were saying it's like you can't have something new unless you allow some space by letting some stuff go , and that has to do with relationships and things like that . Like we can't , it's hard for us to have that experience of different forms of mother and father if the mother and father that we grew up with don't physically go away . Like it allows a different connection to the archetype , the energy , the , whatever you want to call it , allows it to get even closer to having an ideal , divine-type connection to the mother-father , when we don't have the I don't know , it's just kind of a messed-up analogy . I'll share it .

Tonya J. Long 23:40

We are on public radio .

Justin Wenck, PhD 23:41

Yeah , yeah , it's more just , it's clear . But I had a somebody . I'll just say some . Somebody said something after like my mother passed and the way some inheritance things worked out , it was like , and this person's mother passed , like when they were really young and mine passed when I was older and was just hey , is it fair that you get what you got and I got what I got , feeling like he got the short end of the stick because his mother passed when he was like a teenager and so he's thinking that I'm so much better off because I had my mother and then I got some other gifts and things like that .

Justin Wenck, PhD 24:12

And I didn't respond to that because I'm like I don't need it . But I had a thought of you don't know what it was like growing up with my mother and for all you know , it was the greatest gift that this person's mother passed away when they did . Because we don't know what's good or bad . We just have this assumption that oh , it's better to have a relationship go till death . Do we part to have a mother and father live long and but sometimes like maybe we're getting an extra special gift when they're not in our life or they pass soon , like we . There's so many more opportunities that's different than what we think is what we're supposed to have , so that's just what I .

Tonya J. Long 24:45

Yeah , and that was very tame , so I'm sorry . I cautioned you before you started .

Justin Wenck, PhD 24:50

It talks about taboo topic of you're always supposed to go . Oh yeah , you should always be the mother so blessed and the father Some are not so great .

Tonya J. Long 25:03

And that's what you learn in therapy , right .

Justin Wenck, PhD 25:05

Yeah .

Tonya J. Long 25:05

To not make up your narrative in such a way that it's not truthful about what you went through . What I decided in my 50-year-old therapy was they did the best they could . Oh yeah . And that generation they love differently . The children the men I date now that are 50 , that have kids . How they act with their daughters is not how my daddy acted with me . It's a different time . We've learned a lot about how to show love the generation of our parents . They didn't have that . They did the best they could .

Justin Wenck, PhD 25:38

Yeah , I kind of like to think of it as generations of the PlayStation game console .

Tonya J. Long 25:44

That's exactly how I think about it .

Justin Wenck, PhD 25:46

there seems to be this expectation on both sides that it's like the , the the parent to child thing should just be . It's there's some perfect whatever , but it's no . These are like new generations of hardware and software and , yes , there can be a little benefit of where you you bring the older generation game to the new platform , but it's it's going to be missing a little something , it's not taking advantage of whatever , and so it's sort of like that new generation is going to need its own stuff and be different . And it's like you respect the older generation for all of it because it let us get to the new generation , but it's like we shouldn't stop growing and we shouldn't stop shifting .

Tonya J. Long 26:24

There's value in both . To stop shifting , there's value in both . I'm thinking about the analogy or the differences I just articulated with the men that I date that have children .

Tonya J. Long 26:31

It's different , but I think there are . There's good and bad on both sides . With my parents , who I loved deeply , I learned to be resilient . I learned to be resourceful , I learned to be very independent and do my own things . I learned to be very independent and do my own things . I think this generation is getting a lot of hands-on love , but with that hands-on love they're not developing the same levels of resourcefulness , because that muscle isn't grown , because it's like oh , let daddy do it for you . Oh , let mommy write a check and have that done . And people want to do good for their kids . The childless woman on the video recognizes let them skin their knees , let them grow let them figure it out .

Tonya J. Long 27:13

It's amazing what kids will figure out if you give them the space , and a lot of parents are so deeply involved today with their kids . It's to them .

Tonya J. Long 27:21

It's abusive if they're not , like they're holding their hand , put the mandate on the knee every time there's a little scrape and I think in a lot of , if they're not like they're holding their hand , put the mandate on the knee every time there's a little scrape and I think in a lot of ways they're . The kids get a lot of love but they're not . It's not long term , it's not good for the long term because it's not letting them grow yeah , I agree , but also shift a little bit .

Justin Wenck, PhD 27:41

That there's because it's interesting . I got to on a trip and got to see my good friend from high school who's got a 13-year-old Nice , and so it's just interesting to like observe and there's a little bit of noticing that it's oh , I feel like a lot of the way this the son is based off . A lot of my friend . There's a little bit of what 13-year-old really wants to become an accountant or go into it as an accounting major really wants to become an accountant or go into it as an accounting major of . So I because I think this is a little bit of where parents want to do the best for their kid , based off the world as they understand it . Yet the world continues to evolve and the that like resilience and things like that

Identity, Status, and Letting Go

Justin Wenck, PhD 28:20

it to me . I don't believe the world's going to be a world of scarcity , it's going to be a world of abundance , so that some of that things that were necessary of how to scrape and hustle and all these things .

Tonya J. Long 28:30

Build our own tree houses , yeah .

Justin Wenck, PhD 28:32

Yeah , there's a little bit like there's a reason like why humans don't have tails . I don't know if we ever did or whatever , but there's some things where it's like we're in a different world . We don't have these things we . So there might be some things that , like you and me , had to learn that I it could be just like I don't know how to ride a horse , but a hundred years ago it's like what you don't know how to ride a horse . Like that's how to ride a horse . Really , I probably could . It's going to be rough , it's going to be , but I'm we'll share stories later .

Justin Wenck, PhD 29:00

I mean I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of anyone born in the last five years will never learn how to drive a car .

Tonya J. Long 29:06

We'll never learn how to drive a car because it just makes sense .

Justin Wenck, PhD 29:10

There'll be some cause . It's fun , old timing . There's still people that , but it's now . It's . If you don't help somebody learn how to drive it's they're going to be not going to be able to engage in this world . But the way the world's going , it's like there'll be abundance of ways to get around in the world that don't require needing to operate it . Absolutely , and so yeah .

Tonya J. Long 29:28

Good , good . So you mentioned the 13-year-old , which is a great segue for me to do this next station identifier .

Justin Wenck, PhD 29:34

Oh .

Tonya J. Long 29:34

And I'll tie it into 13-year-old in just a minute when I say you are listening to RESET with Tonya , with Justin Lee , on KPCR LP 92.9 out of Los Gatos and KMRT LP 101.9 out of Santa Cruz , and the connection to the 13-year-old is that Pirate Cat Radio here in Los Gatos is running a summer camp for radio broadcasting . So that's going to start in June and I think that's a great skill , hobby interest point . We're targeting 13 to 17 year olds for this summer camp , so look on kpcrorg to get more information . It starts in June and , gosh , I just think that would be really cool because a lot of these kids are interested in podcasting .

Tonya J. Long 30:19

These are such relevant skills and you and I know speaking skills are really important and to give these young people a chance to work on that , I think will be a brilliant way .

Justin Wenck, PhD 30:28

Yeah , it really allows a lot of things from the speaking communication technology . Yeah .

Tonya J. Long 30:33

I'm excited about it . I think it's going to be pretty cool , Anyway . So back to what were we talking about when last I jumped off the 13-year-old bridge ?

Tonya J. Long 30:57

I just know , speaking of bridges , the Dumbarton Bridge , if you're heading over that right now , it gets higher in the middle to allow boats to pass through and then it comes down so you can connect with the other roads . So that's your traffic report coming out of KPCR . Our listeners across the US need to hear about the Dumbarton Bridge . Now they're asking dumb Barton , poor guy who was Barton ?

Justin Wenck, PhD 31:05

It's just a funny name for any . Some things are just Dumbarton . Poor guy who was Barton , it's just a funny name for any . Some things are just dumb Barton .

Tonya J. Long 31:10

You are right . So we've talked about loss . Yes , loss is really just a transition you and I help people with . Say yes , tanya .

Justin Wenck, PhD 31:19

Yes , tanya .

Tonya J. Long 31:20

I got you to do it . That's awesome , but loss is just a transition and you and I help people with transition . So the losses that you've had and we've talked about the different not layers , but the different types of losses they all come with different lessons learned . Yeah , and you've had several of those lessons . How have those things directly helped you to help others ? Because you're not writing code so much anymore . You are .

Justin Wenck, PhD 31:47

You're helping people recode yeah how they think and feel yeah , it's the great thing about not having identity is it's so much easier to not take stuff personally . So I feel like the gift , one of the biggest gifts of any form of loss is it really is a loss of any solidity to our identity , which I know a lot of in the world is it's big on . Ah , my identity is important . You can't tell me that I can't do this because I'm this thing , and I don't even have to say but whatever the thing is you're thinking of , that's it , and as much as you love it or as much as you hate it , it's limiting , because I've really gotten to a point where I view myself as a human and unique and then the rest are just kind of like attributes I can kind of play with .

Justin Wenck, PhD 32:34

It's like I have preferences , I have things I want to do , but it's like , for the most part , you tell me it's like Justin , engineers are the worst thing ever . I'm like I don't know . You tell me anything about . Yeah , there'll be times that I'm I'll get pissed off or I'm sad or whatever . Yeah , but for the most part I can get over that pretty quickly and so it allows me to be of service more . I had the great opportunity went to this gathering in Florida and I got to offer a workshop where I was teaching people how to turn their triggers into treasures with humor .

Tonya J. Long 33:04

I love it . Yeah , oh , I love it yeah .

Justin Wenck, PhD 33:06

And five of the people loved it too . Out of the seven that showed up and two , I had the one guy that is just he's I don't get it . It's just I'm not getting it , Like . I saw this guy in a couple of things . He's just the I'm not getting it guy because his brain , but he's getting it and I don't have to force him , argue whatever . And then I also got the woman who's I didn't actually get her name , but I we can just say it was Karen that she's just really attached to being frustrated with what she doesn't have and just like what , yeah , and I'm just respect , I'm able to like respect and allow her to be who she is , where she is , is , and maybe some of the stuff I said will . Those scenes will sprout later or not , but it's , I'm going to appreciate the people that got it and trust that the people that showed up that maybe didn't get it right , then they will get it . So I feel like that's been one of the big things . Is I ? Again , it's like I appreciate it .

Justin Wenck, PhD 34:04

I always look for ways that I could improve , change , shift , like afterwards I'm like , ooh , if I presented it in this little shift of it , it might make it a little bit more accessible , whatever . So it's not about I don't have to worry about anybody else , it's not that . But I'm not so worried that I'm not going to do my thing and I'm not going to say what I'm going to say , because it's like people are telling me some very challenging , triggering things I just got broken . Like people are telling me some very challenging , triggering things of oh , I've had this lesson I just got broken up with two weeks ago and this is how he did it . And so sometimes I'm like , hey , pause , skip to the end . What's really going on here ?

Justin Wenck, PhD 34:37

Yeah , if I was still like it's one of my big identities , like I'm somebody who's nice to everybody . That used to be an identity of someone who I knew I was . Like I'm so nice and so likable . Be an identity of someone who I knew I was . Like I'm so nice and so likable . Everyone needs to like me . That person can't truly help people when they need it and it's not kind .

Tonya J. Long 34:56

We both coach loss , even when it's not framed that way . Lots of times when people are unsettled , it's about some form of loss that doesn't necessarily involve a human transition and passing . It's the losses of jobs . The doesn't necessarily involve a human transition and passing . It's the losses of jobs , the losses of marriages , those kinds of things .

Tonya J. Long 35:13

But I find that the loss of status is the biggest , most complex and difficult loss to help people through . Including myself . I've lived that identity death and it's not easy to come out of and where's the oxygen tank ? But helping people see a different path after a loss that involves status is one of the hardest to bring people out of .

Justin Wenck, PhD 35:39

For me , yeah , this is an issue . I think somebody's got to really want to be open to letting go of that , and I don't know if it's probably just doesn't get on someone's radar until they've actually lost their status . Honestly , in my experience .

Tonya J. Long 35:59

It is never on people's radar and it's the element of I'm not suggesting people go around and prepare for loss because you can spend your whole . That's not the solution , but how people identify with and accept loss , and in fact even for me . You and I have talked a lot about detachment because I love that word being detached from outcomes .

Tonya J. Long 36:27

Yeah about detachment , because I love that word being detached from outcomes . Yeah , but I am starting to transition my own thought processes , not just because detachment is passive and I am not . It can be passive and I'm not passive . I'm switching my mindset more to existence yeah because detachment reflects to someone else .

Tonya J. Long 36:48

I don't care , I don't care , you can do whatever you want , I don't care , I do care what you do , but I accept what you do and I think that I think this conversation is parallel to the healing conversations that happen when people are dealing with loss of status to me .

Justin Wenck, PhD 37:04

I think how I would . I guess , if I was going to define detachment , I would say it's detaching my emotional state from anybody else's actions or whatever , which is different than having boundaries . It's like I can still have boundaries . I'm not going to allow myself to get upset by what somebody does , but that doesn't mean I'm going to invite them back over for dinner again if they did something because the being angry , the being upset part doesn't , sir no , and it often doesn't change the other person .

Justin Wenck, PhD 37:36

In fact , often it usually ends up allowing them to continue being who they've been and are . And some , sometimes just more , more and more . I just end up smiling and being amused , and I know there's some people that they just get so frustrated .

Tonya J. Long 37:48

But why is this ?

Justin Wenck, PhD 37:49

guy , so like yesterday I was at a group lunch with you

Finding Peace Through Mindful Breathing

Justin Wenck, PhD 37:55

where you couldn't stop smiling , and I was the only one at the table who knew , yeah , what that meant , what those code signals were oh there , I'll say that there are times where there were kind of little pokes at the status thing , and I experienced this yesterday because I think I was telling you before the show , I went to Calistoga where they have all these natural mineral springs and things like that . I went to a place like this and got a mud bath , which is great .

Tonya J. Long 38:19

This is why your skin looks so good . I'm just talking to you . Yeah , I'm radiating . You are . You've been sloughed , I've literally been grounded in a bunch of mud . I've literally been grounded , but I'll bump mud bath .

Justin Wenck, PhD 38:30

And when the procedure was over , there was a power outage in the whole town . That's funny . And there was a woman who was losing her mind because she couldn't blow dry her hair . And she's like I'm supposed to go outside like this . How embarrassing .

Tonya J. Long 38:57

Where am I supposed to plug this in ? Is there anywhere ? It was like that's a bit of a form of loss of status right Of like the status of being pretty , Because for her that was her dignity was to be able to go out coiffed . She , for some reason , needed that .

Justin Wenck, PhD 39:04

Yeah , and to me I'm just like , I'm in a relaxed , chill mode . Anyway , I think I can just keep chilling and relaxing , and I did for the next two hours and then the power came on . It's like there was a pool , there's plenty of stuff to do and yeah . So it's like people will sometimes get the world can status check you at any time , and so if you ever get frustrated , it's like there's an attachment to status .

Justin Wenck, PhD 39:29

But I will offer that there is a way to more proactively do . It is to do something new , do something you haven't done before , because you're not going to have status at it , you're going to be , you're not going to be good , you're going to have a hard time , you're going to be less than everyone else , and so notice what comes up . And so then that's , if it's really frustrating , really challenging , whatever it's like probably time to get some tools , get some practices , talk to some people , because I do believe that , like all these times of loss and things like they can be really awful , but they don't have to be as awful they can be . It can be more easeful .

Tonya J. Long 40:07

It's a mindset shift yeah you and I know because the way we show up with people . You can take two people and identify the same calamity each of them , yeah some people are very interesting . Well , I do with that yeah and then other people are like I can't , the hair dryer doesn't work why am I ? Ever going to get a home ?

Justin Wenck, PhD 40:27

Yeah , because me I was like , oh the power's out , An even better detox , Like now I don't have any .

Tonya J. Long 40:32

Exactly Now . I'm just imagining a power head controlled water supply in terms of pumping it into wherever you were and you were in mud for the rest of the afternoon . That probably would have been inconvenient . Yeah , that would have been a funny story to tell oh , yeah , yeah my 20 minute .

Justin Wenck, PhD 40:49

My bath lasted three and a half hours because there was power yeah , yeah , because a lot of things like the sooner you can get to 30 years from now , if you looked back , would . What would you think about it if you could do that ? Now it's just skip to the . Oh , this is an enjoyable story I'm being a part of . Instead of that .

Tonya J. Long 41:05

Oh my gosh yeah , that's an interesting framework to consider if people have thought about how do I turn this is an enjoyable story . I'm being a part of this . Oh my gosh . Yeah , that's an interesting framework to consider . If people thought about how do I turn this into a good story ? Because this is a unique experience , so how do I turn it into a good story ? If we looked at things with that mindset , we might create a feeling of purpose in what is happening and enjoyment of it , maybe .

Tonya J. Long 41:30

So before I ask this question , it is time for KPCR , lp 92.9 is where we're broadcasting from , and sister station KMRT LP 101.9 FM . We are a public radio station and that means that we build messages for the communities that we serve . So this station is and Justin was asking me before the episode , I would say is a very heavy creative music itinerary set . And then they have some high quality talk shows like RESET with Tonya , and there are some locally based talk shows where local business leaders and community leaders are profiled so that the community learns those people .

Tonya J. Long 42:11

This is a public funded , user funded experience and I'm so proud to be part of it because what we're doing , I believe , is a service to the people who get to be in this community and be part of that creative process . So you're grinning . I'm not going to ask what that's about , but I'm going to ask on this thread that we've been on around people accepting what happens to them . What do you think in all the experience you've had dealing with people , what are the themes that make people successful at accepting or not being attached to outcomes .

Tonya J. Long 42:49

What are the characteristics of people who do that more successfully ?

Justin Wenck, PhD 42:55

I'd say that one of the things that can lead to success , or just more contentment more often , is when it really is practice . I think there's often this oh , when this happens , then that , but it really really isn't . Life is not this , then that it's not . We'd like to think it's linear because that's the mind , but the mind is really not who's in charge , or it shouldn't be . I can't remember whose quote it is , but it's like the mind is a great servant but a horrible master , and so it really is that the more you can practice with getting out of the attachment of what the mind is producing , because we don't get frustrated with how our heart changes beating or how our breath changes it's often the thoughts run around , but the mind thinks , the heart beats , the breath breathes .

Justin Wenck, PhD 43:49

Who is the one experiencing all of that , or what is ? That's the real you , that's the real me , and that's the real essence , the real consciousness , the real source of it all , and so the more it can get into that , and it really is just that noticing and going like I'm going to shift my attention to something . Anything else Because that's really kind of like what acceptance is is recognizing that there's something happening and just going . This is happening and now I'm going to choose what to do with it . There's usually a habitual response of somebody did something in traffic , so now I express anger at them . Yet there's also the option of noticing oh , this is happening and I can now maybe notice well , that was an interesting color of the car that cut me off , or that's exactly what I say there .

Justin Wenck, PhD 44:37

There's , there starts to be a chartreuse ford there really starts to be an infinite number of other things than the thing that is done over and over and over again . We're're often , we're all so boring , really so incredibly boring , doing like the same hundred things every day in , day out . This happens , then that happens . This happens , then that happens .

Tonya J. Long 44:56

And yet we take ourselves so seriously . Oh my gosh , I'm the worst . I am chief sinner and saint for taking myself too seriously .

Justin Wenck, PhD 45:04

Yeah .

Tonya J. Long 45:05

As you were talking a moment ago . I know that you've worked with lots of different people , which is such a privilege right To have all these juicy conversations and transformations that you help to facilitate , that you plant seeds in what are some of the tools or techniques for acceptance that you might offer to the people who are listening ?

Justin Wenck, PhD 45:28

Yeah , so thanks to everybody who's been sticking around since the beginning of the show .

Tonya J. Long 45:32

Oh , do we get it now ?

Justin Wenck, PhD 45:33

Yeah , I think this is a great time .

Tonya J. Long 45:34

Awesome . I didn't mean to set that up , but I'm glad we did . Yeah , okay .

Justin Wenck, PhD 45:39

Really it is shifting out of whatever you're . It's like you're on a train but you don't want to be on the train anyway . You can always get off , you can always get off the train , but it takes practice to to get good at coming on and off the train . The train will always suck you back in , but it's just remembering that you can get off and it really is just doing something that's right here , right now , in the present moment , like something I like to say . It's like getting to it , the truth of now , because really , whatever we're experiencing in the here and the now , that's the only thing that is absolutely true .

Justin Wenck, PhD 46:13

Anything you and I have said , it could be complete lies , could be complete lies made up . The fact is , somebody heard it . That's true . There's no debating the . So I'll offer there's three things to this , but if you only get one of them in a moment , like you're doing , great , so it would .

Justin Wenck, PhD 46:29

The first is to breathe breathe deeper than you would usually breathe , so like inhaling through the nose and then exhaling through the mouth . So that's like the one other thing . And then the second thing is , when you're doing that , you can imagine that you're like breathing into your heart , like into the heart area and then exhaling out to wherever . So just that's not . A second thing is it's like the breath and attention on your heart area . And the third is you can just be as you inhale .

Justin Wenck, PhD 47:02

You can just say I love myself , so just like inhaling , I love myself . So just like inhaling , I love myself . And so if you just do one of the three things , you're doing , great , two of the three things also good , three out of the three . But I would challenge anybody . If you can remember to do that at least once a day and do that consistently over the next three weeks , you'll probably notice some profound shifts . And the more you can do it , this is the kind of thing that , like driving down here , that I can just do I love myself . It just got cut off . I can't get the radio station on my dial . I love myself . It's coming into my heart . Letting it out , because how much better is that compared to anything else that you're likely going to be thinking ?

Justin Wenck, PhD 47:47

that's just naturally rattling around , it's I have self-talk yeah , oh , I have the most awful , horrendous default self-talk of judging myself of other people . I should have gotten the radio station thing figured out yesterday . And it's like this person what . They're going too slow . That person's a maniac .

Tonya J. Long 48:05

They're going too fast that person's driving a pink car .

Justin Wenck, PhD 48:08

For god's sake yeah , yeah , yeah , that's not even mary kay .

Tonya J. Long 48:14

Oh , you didn't earn that car , you know what ? Oh my goodness . All right , thank you for that yeah and when people are exhaling loudly on zoom calls across america tomorrow , we'll know that they listened to the podcast and are looking forward to what you shared . So thank you for that moment of teach and reach .

Justin Wenck, PhD 48:34

Yeah , yeah . And if you breathe in a way that people can hear it , that's a service to other people , because then they go oh , maybe I should breathe too . Yeah , let's do that . It can be like a real fun thing , because I think most people maybe are aware that , like when you yawn it , it causes other people to yawn I did that just yesterday yeah , but that can happen and it's just wait . I'm powerful . I just did a deep breath and now I see I notice other people breathing a little bit more deeply .

Tonya J. Long 49:01

We're so powerful service to the world . Yeah , I love it . Yeah , I love it . Speaking of service to the , we haven't talked about technology at all .

Justin Wenck, PhD 49:10

Isn't that amazing .

Tonya J. Long 49:11

Isn't it wonderful I'm feeling so relaxed .

Justin Wenck, PhD 49:13

Well , we'll talk about the KPCR radio camp for the teens a little bit .

Tonya J. Long 49:18

Fine , yeah , it's a stretch to say that was a technology conference .

Justin Wenck, PhD 49:21

It sounded like a great event that I wanted to plug again . Yeah Well , thank you For the kids . I'm going to plug again . Yeah Well , thank you For the kids .

Tonya J. Long 49:26

Thank you for that . You've done improv .

Justin Wenck, PhD 49:27

We've talked about improv . I have those gifts .

Tonya J. Long 49:30

So thank you for all those gifts that you've given today . But on the tech talk side , what role do you think technology plays in well-being or could play ? That's a fun conversation .

Justin Wenck, PhD 49:52

I'll answer this the way I'll just say . I'll answer more of just what I think the role of technology should be period . The

Technology as Servant, Not Master

Justin Wenck, PhD 49:55

role of technology should be to serve us however we desire , period , end of story . So I hear a lot of people that have all these credentials and all these experience going . I think technology and AI is going to do this to us and that to us , and I'm like I don't care . If you can't say what you wanted to do , you probably should go retire and not bother anybody anymore . I want technology to be here to serve us so that we can enjoy our lives , connect with other people , get to be more artistic , live in a world of abundance where we don't have to worry about doing things to eat , to have medical care , to have places to live . That's the kind of world that I'm putting in , that I'm creating . That technology is going to be here , that it's going to be the most incredible servant . It's going to be maybe like the fourth servant . It's our heart serves us , our lungs serve us , our mind serve us , and then technology is going to serve us .

Justin Wenck, PhD 50:42

It's been backwards for way too long where we have been serving technology . It's time to end that . And if somebody is not about ending that , stop listening to them , stop paying them attention . They're a child . They're a child . We've let the kids run amok for too long , especially here in Silicon Valley and in other parts of the world . It's time for the adults to go . All right , kids , that was cute . We're going to make this actually something that's going to be really enjoyable for everybody . It's time for technology to be for everybody . Period , end of story , and that'll just result in great wellness .

Tonya J. Long 51:13

I love it . What would be your number one tactical , practical tip ? I'm talking about the real meat and potato stuff . Don't look at yourself on at night when you go to bed those kinds of which one resonates for you the highest .

Justin Wenck, PhD 51:28

I would say one big thing is ignore the news as much as possible . Ignore as much news as much as possible . If it's really important , somebody will tell you . And then after that , as much types of digital detox . I think it is good to have a no phone from at some point . Don't go to the phone right when you wake up . But oh my gosh , even just a four hour digital detox it's . It can be like quite white knuckling often , but you feel so refreshed afterwards and then , if you can , then do that for a whole 24 hour period .

Tonya J. Long 52:03

Yeah .

Justin Wenck, PhD 52:03

But again start small Okay build , thank you .

Tonya J. Long 52:06

Start small , make improvements , build . I could go on for another hour , but we're at the top of our hour , so let's end this with help our listeners understand how they can experience you , get in touch with you the mediums I know we talked about at the beginning of the call , but let's let you recap that one more time as we close .

Justin Wenck, PhD 52:28

Yeah , it's great to be here . Kpcr 92.3 , 92.9 FM Los Gatos , california .

Tonya J. Long 52:34

You're hired .

Justin Wenck, PhD 52:35

Yeah , I'm like , oh my gosh , it's top of the hour . We've got to get the call letters out and all the things . We can get in touch with you on LinkedIn . So I'm Justin Wink , phd on all the major socials , including LinkedIn , instagram , all those things . Justinwinkcom is great to find the podcast stuff about my book . I have some free offerings there there's yeah , that you can get .

Tonya J. Long 52:55

You have an excellent meditation . I will say , because I called you when I did it , it was excellent .

Justin Wenck, PhD 53:01

Yeah , thank you so much for finding that , because now it's even easier to find there under the free offerings webpage .

Tonya J. Long 53:07

Good and you're on the two-year anniversary of your books . I noticed you had some programs going on for packaging with the book .

Justin Wenck, PhD 53:14

Yeah , so it's like the 99 cents for the kindle and then everything's literally the lowest possible price .

Tonya J. Long 53:20

Amazon would allow it to be so yeah , all right , it's a gift to people to be able to read what you share in the way that you share it . So thank you .

Justin Wenck, PhD 53:29

Thank you so much . And yeah , I'm open for one-on-one coaching , consulting

Final Thoughts and How to Connect

Justin Wenck, PhD 53:32

and then also giving talks to teams and groups and things as well .

Tonya J. Long 53:35

Wonderful , then I hope we see more of you talking to teams and groups to make this a better world .

Justin Wenck, PhD 53:41

Yeah , thank you so much , tanya .

Tonya J. Long 53:42

So we have been here on KPCR 92.9 FM in Los Gatos with sister station KMRT 101.9 out of Santa Cruz . We are signing off with Justin Waite and Tonya Long from RESET with Tonya .

Justin Wenck, PhD 54:04

Have a wonderful rest of your week . Is this just dead air right now ? Are we live ? Well , but they want to know what's going on ?

Tonya J. Long 54:24

Are we clear ?

Justin Wenck, PhD 54:24

We weren't when you asked . I actually love hearing stuff like that , if I'm a listener .

Tonya J. Long 54:30

Fun , I don't know .

Justin Wenck, PhD 54:32

The fun of the live .

Tonya J. Long 54:34

And now I've got to check in .

Justin Wenck, PhD 54:38

Oh , you're so good at this .